{Hal's Note: You really do not have to be Grateful Dead fans to enjoy this incredible CD by The Persuasions, Brooklyn's own, acapella original street corner doo wop group. And, they're our age. This is not a "cover" in so much as it is a re-interpretation of The Dead's music through the eyes of Urban African Americans who bring this music right back to their own roots through the eyes of Garcia and Dead lyricist Robert Hunter.}
"Might As Well:
The Persuasions Sing Grateful Dead" (GDCD 4070)
An Interview with David Gans
by Steve Silberman
NOTE: This interview is freeware, a non-commercial gift to the online community.
I did it because I think the Persuasions just made an amazing record, and I
figured I'd use the occasion of posting my rave review to the Net to ask David
some questions about the making of the album. Feel free to post or forward
anywhere without permission.
-- Steve Silberman (digaman@wired.com)
INTRODUCTION: Some records take two or three listens before you realize you're
hearing a classic album for the first time. This isn't one of them. "Might As
Well" is the kind of record that seems familiar and deeply right the first time
you hear it.
For years, I'd been seeing the world that Dead lyricist Robert Hunter
sketched out through the Dead's eyes. Other people who covered their music had a
way of sounding like tourists in that world, dressing up in the native garb for a
tune before catching the next plane out. This record is different. The
Persuasions sing like they live in that world -- they are *of* that place that all
those songs on "Workingman's Dead" and "American Beauty" and "Europe '72" are
about.
It's no wonder. The Persuasions sing the kind of music that Jerry Garcia
had in his heart and ears as he wrote the music for these tunes, listening to
gospel groups like the Swan Silvertones and the Golden Gate Singers. We're
talking about black music; you might even say church music. Garcia loved that
music. Just listen to the Jerry Garcia Band -- music that wouldn't have been out
of place played before a storefront congregation. Part of the reason why the
Dead's music had such muscle was because it was nourished by rivers of great black
music, from gospel,to jazz, to R & B and the blues. That element is missing from
the music of some of the Dead's jam-band successors, who seem to have skipped
their classes at the University of Black Music beyond Funk 101.
The Dead are remembered as the prototypical jam band, but what everyone forgets
is that Deadheads also came for the songs. The Dead's ballads, especially, had the
durability of well-worn hymns. They made some unspeakable burden lighter. They
whispered that it all mattered somehow. No one will ever be better than Garcia
playing his songs on guitar, but in the Persuasions, the world that Hunter created
has found its ideal human chorus.
The Persuasions find corners in the music the Dead never turned up.
Listen to Jimmy Hayes plumb the depths beneath "Ship of Fools," or "Liberty,"
which is transformed from the declaration of independence of one witty rebel into
a don't-tread-on-me anthem from the streets. The celebrations on this record go
beyond the Jehovah's favorite choir finding Fennario on the streetcorners of
Brooklyn. Gans and Rense pushed the Persuasions' formula to include weird human
kazoos blurting perfect solos on "Might As Well" -- shades of the original mix of
"Aoxomoxoa"! And dig Eric Thompson's mandolin on "Lazy River Road." It strikes
me that Garcia would probably have liked this record a whole lot better than a lot
of the wanking done in his name. It's humble and focused -- the vocals are more
robust than the Dead's, but with their own edge.
Like Harry Smith's Folkways "Anthology of American Folk Music," this is
music from a completely invented place, outside of time. It sounds like it fell
out of some opening between the past and the future; as dependable as the former,
but as unpredictable and lively as the latter. I can imagine those voices coming
out of the grille of an old radio; heard on a sunny street in Denver, 1945;
pouring out of your mother's convertible when she was younger than you; and
especially, right now -- when we Deadheads still miss the Old Man so much, not
realizing that the sharp pain of absence could go on so long.
In a month of incredible releases of Dead-related music, this is the one you'll
be giving to your parents, your family, that friend who understands. Like
"American Beauty" and "Old and In the Way," it's suitable for non-Deadheads; it
will be used to "explain" the Dead to relatives who will say variations of, "I
never knew their music was so *nice*." But it will also function as a secret
weapon, seeking out potential Deadheads in the general population. Those who are
destined to find their hearts in the Dead's music will be delivered right into the
heart of it. And those who aren't will still be allowed to visit a place as old
as the dream of a Promised Land, where members of a black and white congregation
sing their sacred and earthly songs together.
SILBERMAN: David, what was the moment that you first heard about this project?
GANS: It was the work of Rip Rense, a journalist I've known for about 15 years.
Rip is a Deadhead -- I remember being really tickled by a piece he wrote for an LA
paper about a Dead show in Las Vegas in the early '80s. I bought freelance pieces
from him when I was a magazine editor, and we stayed in touch over the years.
Rip started working with The Persuasions a few years ago, and he got them a couple
of record deals: "Frankly A Cappella," a collection of Zappa stuff, and "On the
Good Ship Lollipop," a wonderful collection of songs for kids. He was interested
in having the Persuasions do a record of Dead songs, and he wanted my help.
At that time, I was collecting material for "Stolen Roses: Songs of the Grateful
Dead" (released August 8 on Grateful Dead/Arista Records). This was means to be a
compilation of material the artists had chosen on their own -- as opposed to a
"tribute" album of works commissioned by a producer -- but I invited the
Persuasions to submit a track on spec. Rip helped the band pick out a song, and
(I believe) paid to have "Black Muddy River" recorded. I was knocked out by their
performance, and so I included the track on the CD. Robert Hunter also expressed
a very positive opinion of the Persuasions' rendition of "Black Muddy River."
"Stolen Roses" was put on hold for a while in 1999, while I worked on the GD boxed
set "So many Roads (1965-1995)" with you and Blair Jackson. That project turned
out to be a huge hit, which gave me the confidence to present Rip's proposal of a
Persuasions-do-Dead CD to Grateful Dead Records. Hunter's praise for the track
helped, too. To my great delight, the record company said yes.
SILBERMAN: What songs were at the top of your list when you thought about the
Persuasions singing them?
GANS: Rip and I decided to ask Hunter for a list of songs. He suggested:
"Brokedown Palace"
"Candyman"
"Cats Under the Stars"br>
"Franklin's Tower"
"He's Gone"
"Liberty"
"Midnight Getaway"br>
"Ship of Fools"br>
"Stella Blue"
"Sugaree"
"So Many Roads"
"Lazy River Road"
Rip and I each wrote up a list, too. The three lists were surprisingly congruent,
and so Rip put together cassettes of 30 or so more-or-less unanimous selections,
and Jerry Lawson chose the material from the tapes.
SILBERMAN: You elected to add other players and other instruments to the
Persuasions' standard a capella format, including your own guitar on "One More
Saturday Night." How were those decisions made?
GANS: The decisions about what instruments to use on the which songs were made
collectively by Jerry Lawson, Rip Rense and myself. I selected the musicians --
and that is the one aspect of my participation in this project that I am proudest
of: my choices were right on the money.
Lawson had some ideas about instruments, including a full band with drums and
electric bass -- which Rip and I both opposed 100%. I know a couple of "vocal
percussionists" -- Joe Craven of the David Grisman Quintet and Andrew Chaikin,
formerly of the House Jacks -- and although the Pers were skeptical about this
idea based on past experience, they were happy with what these two guys came up
with.
I have been a fan and supporter of Mary Schmary, a San Francisco a cappella
quartet, for ten years. They're big fans of the Persuasions, and I knew the two
groups would make great music together. We put in a huge day with the Schmaries,
just playing stuff for them and then standing back while they found their own
sweet way into the music.
I knew I wanted to get [Schmary member] Alyn Kelley's "trumpet" into this thing
somewhere, but I didn't know where until we were working out the Schmarriage on
the title track. I just turned to Alyn and said, just for fun, "Give us some
trumpet." She did, and everyone loved it. While we were listening back to it, the
rest of the Schmaries and a couple of Persuasions started making trombone sounds,
so we recorded some of that. And everyone loved all of this so much that we broke
out in spontaneous applause every time we played it back -- so I recorded some of
that, too, and it stayed in all the way through the final mix. Magic!
When we started working on "It Must Have Been the Roses," Lawson kept miming a
steel guitar. I knew EXACTLY what instrument to use there: Pete Grant's Zephyr
ten-string Dobro. I knew of this instrument only because I visited Pete's house
with my friend Jim Page on our way to a gig earlier this year, and when we sat
down to do some pickin', Pete charmed me to pieces with it. Electric pedal steel
wouldn't have been appropriate, and a traditional Dobro sounded a little too harsh
for the context (Pete brought in one of those, too). The Zephyr is strung like a
pedal steel, with the same close intervals between the strings, so it gives rich,
full chords with a very sweet tone.
We had invited the surviving Dead members to join us. Bob Weir and Mickey Hart
were both willing, but schedules couldn't be coordinated. Vince Welnick was both
available and interested, and as I knew he would, he put both a great spirit and a
huge amount of musical knowledge into his participation. We worked out the
arrangement of "One More Saturday Night" in the studio, in a circle around Vince
at the piano -- the five Persuasions, Andrew Chaikin splooshing and chunking his
magical sounds, me in there signaling vocal ups and downs. We used Take 1 of that
song, by the way. "Bertha" came about through a similar process. And "Ship of
Fools" just arranged itself: Vince playing that lonesome cocktail piano ("Closing
Time at the Psychedelic Cafe," I call it) and Jimmy delivering the performance of
a lifetime.
The Persuasions and the Schmaries laid a bunch of background vocals down, just for
the pleasure of stacking the voices a mile high, but everyone knew we were going
to carve almost all of it away.
I invited Peter Rowan with an ear to his mandola, but he never took it out of its
case. Once the Pers heard that voice of his, we knew what "Sugaree" needed.
Eric Thompson was my second choice for mandolin, I must admit. David Grisman was
the first call, because of his greatness but also because of his association with
Jerry Garcia, but we couldn't get our time frames to match up. Eric, too, had
history with Garcia -- they played in bluegrass bands and jug bands in the early
'60s. Eric worked out a lovely solo for "Lazy River Road," and laid down a
perfect minimal rhythm part on the end of "Ripple."
My acoustic guitar part on "Sugaree" was originally intended as a guide track
only. That is, I played it as a reference for the singers only. We decided later
to actually put it into the finished track. I made the part up on the fly, just
trying to follow the new groove the Pers had created for the song. Sugaree is in
12/8 time, I think -- some multiple of three, anyway -- but the Persuasions turned
it into a 4/4 thing and simplified the chord structure quite a bit.
The electric guitar on "One More Saturday Night" was a last-minute overdub. We
were mixing in August, and as Lawson left the studio to fly back east for some
Persuasions gigs, he told me to put an electric guitar part on while he was gone.
I was surprised, and a bit nervous, too. But I trusted Lawson's instincts, and I
came up with a part that didn't adhere too closely to the Dead's version. I
slipped a quote from another favorite Dead song into my solo.
SILBERMAN: In my introduction to this interview, I talk a lot about the thrill of
hearing this music sung by black singers, how natural that feels. Critics don't
seem to talk much about the black influences on the band's music, which were
significant, considering Jerry's love for gospel music, Pigpen's upbringing as the
son of a famous rhythm-and-blues DJ, and Billy Kreutzmann's passion for the jazz
polyrhythms of Elvin Jones. [The Dead's late archivist] Dick Latvala told me that
he first got hit with the soul-transforming potential of music by seeing gospel
groups perform at the Kaiser Auditorium -- people in the audience would start
speaking in tongues or faint, and get carried out by white-gloved ushers, who
would fan them back to consciousness. Did you ever talk with Garcia about his
interest in black vocal groups like the Golden Gate Singers?
GANS: No, but it was clear from his choice of songs to cover with the JGB, and in
the utter catholicity of his discourse about music in every interview and
backstage conversation I ever heard, that Jerry understood that spirit,
inspiration, brilliance and power could be found in just about any corner of the
world.
SILBERMAN: Were there any songs that you tried to nail down for this record that
you just couldn't get right?
GANS: We started "Stella Blue" twice and did not manage to get it anywhere near
completion. I'm not sure why.
SILBERMAN: That would have been great. Can you recall any moments when the
Persuasions seemed to *get* what Dead music is all about?
GANS: I don't think there was any single epiphany. I suspect that each band
member made his own connection with the songs, and with the spirit of the Grateful
Dead, in his own time while studying the tapes. By the time I hooked up with
them, they had been rehearsing for several weeks.
In the studio, we would talk about the lyrics -- sometimes with a lot of
laughter. For example, there was a great moment when we discussed the literal
interpretation of "One More Saturday Night": "Let's see here... 'I went *down* to
the mountain, I was drinkin' some wine, I looked *up* into Heaven, Lord, I saw a
mighty sign' -- where exactly *is* he?" They decided: purgatory!
Somewhat more seriously, Jerry Lawson surprised and delighted me when he suggested
that "It Must Have Been the Roses" was about a suicide. In more than 25 years of
carrying that song in my mind, that possibility never once occurred to me -- but
once he said it, I could imagine it being so. That deepened my appreciation of
the song.
They kicked around the bridge of "Lazy River Road" -- "Moonlight wails as hound
dogs bay" -- quizzically, until they realized that it wasn't necessary to
"understand" the words in that literal way. What it evokes, what it suggests, is
as important as what it denotes. That was one important aspect of "getting it"
about what Dead music is all about.
SILBERMAN: As host of the Grateful Dead Hour (http://www.gdhour.com), you've
been marinating in this music for so long -- what new perspectives did you gain on
the Dead's music in the course of these sessions?
GANS: Well, I will confess that while Jerry and Jimmy were laying down the bass
and lead vocals on "Ripple" -- a stunning moment enshrined by San Francisco
Chronicle columnist Jon Carroll, who attended all the sessions
(http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/06/15/DD57064.DTL)
-- I whispered to Jon, "This version makes the Dead sound like a bunch of speed
freaks." I am a big fan of Garcia's soulful singing, but there was something else
happening when the Persuasions got hold of some of this stuff.
I was also really impressed with the pure sexiness of Sweet Joe Russell's take on
"Loose Lucy." "Lazy River Road," already evocative of the Stephen Foster vibe
that suffuses much of Hunter's oeuvre, really takes wing on this disc. The
harmonies take me back to my childhood, getting up early on Sunday mornings in
search of cartoons on TV and finding gospel choirs.
We've always known the Dead drew on these many threads of music in their
compositions, but the connection is much more clearly audible to the naked ear
when you hear the Persuasions sing these songs.
SILBERMAN: Who decided on the sequence of songs? There's a great flow to this
record, from the little "Here Comes Sunshine" opener, followed by some engaging
uptempo stuff, into heavier ballad places, then rave-ups toward the finish, with a
lovely "Black Muddy River" coda.
GANS: I created the sequence, and Lawson made one change (swapping "He's Gone"
and "It Must Have Been the Roses"). I had expected that process to be much more
of a challenge, but the sequence suggested itself quite readily and Jerry and Rip
agreed.
SILBERMAN: How is the feedback on the record? Have you been surprised by any of
the reactions to the album thus far?
GANS: Not surprised -- just thrilled. The ol' Deadhead grapevine seems to have
lost its sense of global networkitude over the last few years, and I wondered if
the word would get out about this CD. I was delighted to see so many familiar
faces at the CD release party in San Francisco, and I've been gratified by the
comments I've received in email and read on DeadNet Central and the WELL.
The non-Deadhead world is getting interested, too. The Kitchen Sisters spent a
day with us at the end of the recording sessions and produced a wonderful
12-minute piece for their "Lost and Found Sound" series
(http://www.lostandfoundsound.com), which aired October 20 on NPR's "All Things
Considered." That broadcast got us a lot of very enthusiastic feedback from the
general public, and I've gotten quite a bit of email from people who don't much
care for the Dead but really like this version of the Dead's music. That is
especially gratifying to me because I have always thought the Dead's songwriting
was world-class even if their performing and recording skills weren't exactly
mainstream.
SILBERMAN: How does "Might As Well" represent one example of a hopeful future for
the Dead's music?
GANS: These are great songs that have always deserved a place in history. If the
Dead's own performances were too homely for the sensibilities of a large
proportion of the populace (and I think we have to grant that they were), then
it's a great thing that other performers tackle this body of work. "Wake the
Dead" is another very satisfying take on the music, intertwining Dead songs with
traditional Celtic tunes.
I think it's also great to hear musicians adopt a Dead song or two into their
repertoires without devoting an entire CD (or career) to it. That was my mission
in putting together "Stolen Roses: Songs of the Grateful Dead": rather than
recruit musicians to play the songs I chose for them (although I did that in the
case of "Dark Star" by the David Grisman Quintet), I wanted to collect the Dead
covers that artists had come to in their own time. I would like to see more of
that. Dead songs deserve a place in the Big Book of American Music right
alongside Robbie Robertson's, Lowell George's, and Brian Wilson's.
SILBERMAN: To stray from our primary subject for a moment, I've been blown away
by Bob Weir and Ratdog's new album "Evening Moods." Frankly, it's a lot better
than I expected: the songs are very very strong (several of them would have
become Dead classics, I feel), Bob's guitar has emerged from the gimmicky sounds
that it was buried in since the early '90s to be soulful and kick-ass again, and
the live feel of the album -- like the jam between "Two Djinn" and "Corrina" -- is
very pleasing. The lyrics, too, befit Weir's age and station, reflecting on some
of the darker questions that one becomes conscious of at mid-life. A younger
musician wouldn't have been able to get this profound on certain essential
matters, such as when he sings about drinking from "the cup that is always dry."
Any thoughts on "Evening Moods?"
GANS: I agree with you 100% and then some! I wasn't expecting to love this CD as
much as I do, but I found myself listening to it over and over in my rent-a-car on
several long-distance drives recently. And I put it on at home even after I
finished my interview with Bobby for the GD Hour :^)
Bob's guitar sound has indeed arisen from the grungy murk of the latter-day Dead.
His singing is as good as it's ever been. And he has taken songs written with a
number of lyricists and created a body of work that hangs together very well
indeed; that says something important about his maturity as a songwriter.
SILBERMAN: What would you tell someone whose first taste of Dead music was "Might
As Well?"
GANS: If you like this, go get "Workingman's Dead," "Blues for Allah," and "Live
Dead." When you've bonded with those three CDs, there's plenty more where they
came from! And check out "On the Good Ship Lollipop," too -- that's the
delightful collection of children's songs that the Persuasions put out last year.
SILBERMAN: What elements of the Dead's legacy are consistently overlooked?
GANS: The single element I listen for is the hardest one to deliver: genuine
collective composition. We aren't getting any of that in the Persuasions' CD, of
course, but it wasn't part of the deal; this is abut the songs.
When I play Grateful Dead music, I want to do what the Dead did: take off from a
known realm into the uncharted ether, where sensitive musicians listen to each
other and build structures in thin air. At their peak -- I'd offer 1973 and much
of 1974 as the place to look for awesome examples of this (the "Soundcheck Jam"
from Watkins Glen on "So Many Roads" leaps to mind) -- the Dead could go for
upwards of half an hour between "songs" without a heartbeat's worth of wankage.
The best of the "cover bands" take the stage without a set list, because it is
contrary to the spirit of the music to plan anything beyond your point of
departure.
This was my problem with Dark Star Orchestra when I saw them or the first time,
and I still don't think theirs is the most appropriate approach. But last summer
I found myself dancing in the dirt in front of their stage, very much enjoying the
authentic vibe they were putting out. And I was surrounded by a few hundred more
ecstatic dancers, so how can it be wrong? They do plenty of improvising within
the known song list, so I had to withdraw my objection.
I had a conversation with someone the other day in which I was trying to sum up
the special magic of the Dead. What makes this music work so well for people of a
certain mindset -- and psychedelics may be an important part of its formation,
although not essential to the practice -- is that combination of great songs and
extended jamming. What we got in a Grateful Dead concert that is damn hard to find
anywhere else in the post-Dead world is some deeply challenging idea -- a story, a
moral question, an evocative poetic notion -- followed by a jam that serves as
perfect accompaniment for rumination.
I have often written that I get some of my best thinking done at Dead shows, solve
problems, cry wholesome tears, etc. It's because the songs tend to give you great
food for thought -- and not just in the lyrics, either. I remember certain times
hearing Bobby's keening in the jam out of "Estimated Prophet," wondering what
lives inside him that inspires the desperation he's portraying. The Dead would
set us up with something in their world that illuminates something in our own
private universe, and then we'd think along with the music while they worked at
building those cathedrals in the sky. I have yet to hear another jam band whose
songs provide that same sort of charge, let alone an ensemble whose improvisations
provide a comparably stimulating soundtrack for cogitation.
What does this have to do with the Persuasions? Not much, I guess, but the depth
of their interpretations of these songs feeds back into my appreciation of GD
music on tape, and that's one way to keep the music alive and fresh.
SILBERMAN: Thank you, David.
David Gans (david@gdhour.com) is a musician, the author of "Playing in the Band"
and numerous other books on the Dead, and Steve Silberman (digaman@wired.com)
co-authored "Skeleton Key: A Dictionary for Deadheads" in 1994. With Blair
Jackson, they co-produced the Dead's box set, "So Many Roads (1965-1995)."
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